Join Grace and me as we discuss the FIA Women’s Commission, Carmen Jorda, Pippa Mann, 3 engines, Jean Todt, Mercedes and passing. We even have a few awards and tried hard to make this a commuter-friendly podcast.
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Negative Camber
Chief Opinion Officer, TPF
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+1 to Todd: I don’t believe we’re anywhere near done innovating the ICE either.
Well, at least there’s two of us who feel that way. :)
I would love to see an hybrid-less ICE brought back and see what the teams come out with (direct injection comes to mind, which was not allowed in the pre-hybrid days). The ICE is a long way from being fully baked.
In the pre hybrid-less (NA indirect injection ICE ONLY) days who were the privateer engine makers troubling or giving competition to the manufacturers?.
I don’t understand the context of why you are asking me this(?)
No one but I think it bears in mind that they did make an affordable, competitive engine that allowed more teams the opportunity to participate. Cosworth, Mugen Honda, Mechachrome et. al. Jordan did pretty darn well with that Mugen Honda.
‘a person opposed to increased industrialization or new technology.’ – what do you think that is the definition for?????
Just sayin’ Lol :-)
English is not my first language, and given that nobody will read this after 7 days, I’m just going to take a guess: Luddite?
Got it in one Meine ;-)
They certainly aren’t, apparently most of the power gains in F1 this year have come from the I.c.e (refer to some of salvu borg’s posts).
But I doubt that manufacturers have any interest in developing pure I.c.e’s for F1.
Three maximum power output modes are possible from the present power unit. ICE, ELECTRIC, AND ICE IN ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGED MODE. the ICE alone and ICE IN ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGED MODE outputs are in constant non ending developments. the ELECTRIC POWER OUTPUT maximum is fixed by the rules at a maximum of 160 HP for 33.33 seconds per lap. The ICE power output is in constant development, and it is were most power gains are made, mostly through the combustion process. in turn these development gains will up the ICE IN ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGED MODE outputs, but this mode is limited and depends… Read more »
And would it be fair to say that without the kinetic and heat energy recover and energy storage the energy efficiency of a stand alone i.c.e could never reach the levels of the current hybrid p.u.?
So a pure I.c.e would either have a lower power output for the same fuel allowance and flow rate, or would require more fuel to match the current output.
First I will repeat: In this, the “third” biggest ever effort in the history to develop the ICE since its invention, the FI PU is now more thermal efficient than the average EV road car. The ERS (electrification) part of the present F1 PU is a contributor to the ICE part of the PU efficiency. But the biggest contributor is the ICE. (Read my other post carefully). The ICE (alone) as is, certainly haven’t reached its maximum efficiency development yet. But it is way past, and certainly not comparable to the previous NA 2.4L V8, which peaked/maxed at an efficiency… Read more »
Just some background on the gas turbine (GT) efficiency portion and how it compares to the current hybrid PU’s. Much like a standard ICE, a standard GT operating on its own can only achieve efficiencies of 30 to 40%. This includes the losses from generator (or in ICE terms, the transfer of power from the crank, through the transmission and to the road). The numbers I have seen for the F1 PU are all at the crank, so they would be lower if transmission ‘to the road’ losses were accounted for. Its only when you add the hybrid (or in… Read more »
In engineering terms as regards the 4 stroke cycle internal combustion engine running/using regular pump fuel (as mandated by the FIA) The present 1.6l turbocharged engine, part of the F1 hybrid, which means the ICE alone, “bare of any electrification”, is the most powerful ICE ever produced in the world at an output of 840 BHP/525 BHP/l using/consuming 35% less fuel. Also it is the most thermal efficient ever produced in the world. This level of power output and thermal efficiency are still being developed. The electrification (ERS) (MGU-K/MGU-H) part of the present F1 PU, are gapped by the rules… Read more »
“The FIA rules does not permit anything into the combustion chamber other than the mandated fuel, that is apart from the crankcase fumes/sediments being mandated as to be returned to the engine air intake.
Water injection is not permitted.”
Ok, water injection is not allowed in the combustion chamber, that is reasonable – what about water injection in the exhaust (ie. between the ICE and turbo)? Although it may be too bulky and the tradeoffs not worth it, injecting water into the exhaust may allow for a smaller turbo (for the same turbo output).
Neither is water injection in the exhaust between ICE and turbo permitted
Re turbo small or big. The physical size of the turbo is dictated by the MGU-H maximum RPM permitted. the technical design requirements/constrains are.
Maximum compressor disc blade tip radius is dictated by mandated maximum RPM.
Maximum turbine disc blade tip radius is dictated by the maximum compressor blade tip radius.
In turn these radiuses/discs sizes dictates how physically big/small a turbo can be.
The present F1 ICE is boosted at between 4 and 5 bar boost.
The present F1 ICE compression ratio is at 16:1.
Wow! I hadn’t thought to work out what specific output these current I.c.e’s produce. 525bhp/litre (390kw/litre!!!!).
On the one hand, 840bhp (625kw) in a considerably lighter car ditching the mgu-k, mgu-h, energy store etc would be exciting (definitely under 600kg, could they get under 500?), but on the other hand that would isolate F1 from being a pathway for road relevant p.u technology.
Hope you do understand that the numbers I gave are for the present turbocharged ICE only/bereft of any electrification (ERS). Yes ditching the K, H and ES will still be exiting, and efficiency as well as output will still be developed and registers gains. the problem is that the technology development game has changed so dramatically that if the next formula will contain no electrification to the ICE and the present manufacturers are still present, no private engine maker will have a hope in hell to compete with or trouble the present manufacturers, unless he is backed/working for a major… Read more »
Okiedokie, so I.c.e plus turbo (with electric power of the turbo?). The framework that Ross Brawn and the FIA have put up makes it clear that F1 will have hybridisation for the foreseeable future, and if you’re right about the advantage the current manufacturers have accrued, there won’t be any liklihood of new p.u suppliers private or manufacturer joining in. I’m sure everyone can understand/accept that you are commenting based on your views of the realities of where F1 is currently technially. And while you might consider improving the output and efficiency of the naturally aspirated I.c.e is the bigger… Read more »
“Will isolate F1 from being a pathway for road relevant PU technology” exactly, have you seen my post about the Honda new for a road car MGU-H patent?.
Not yet, I’ll go and have a look at that.
While the power output figures for the ICE and TC alone are certainly impressive, the current components aren’t designed to be used in that mode. What sort of turbo lag would the unit suffer without the MGU-H? and how drivable would a car be without the MGU-K to fill in any gaps in the power band? If the regulations specified just a 1.6 litre turbo engine with no ERS, then the solutions that the manufacturers came up with may well be different, or if not the drivers would have a much harder job particularly in the wet.
In my opinion in this day/time/age “turbo-lag/drivability” (in dry or wet) is just something perceived. The possibility of a “forced induction or NA” without any electrification, are good subjects to talk about if you would like to Pursue further.
I would never say never on the ICE development reaching the current hybrid PU. I believe it could. Toyota is claiming its next generation engine to be 41% (impressive in that this is still a naturally aspirated engine). But it also depends on what constitutes a pure ICE. Does it include super/turbo charging(?). Can the only improvements be considered if its part of the block(?). What about going to electric pumps and super/turbo chargers(?). Can we get rid of that pesky alternator in favor of just charging the battery on regenerative braking(?) or regenerate during normal cruise but use the… Read more »
Cheers SC, I remember reading about Toyota’s super efficient next generation I.c.e. I understand that runs in an Atkinson cycle to get that efficiency, and so doesn’t produce high power per litre of capacity. Not sure if they work at high revs either. Is supercharging or turbocharging allowed? I think that for the posters who want a return to high reving V8’s, V10’s or V12’s, that would have to be NO! Though I suspect they would also regard fuel injection as unnecessary complexity. So it would have to be straight unencumbered natural aspiration. And efficiency, in this context, I think… Read more »
I have a suspicion, that the mission of the commision, was for the attrition of women running for the commision, was that Carmen would pip Pippa, for transition to the commission! Got it?
groan………
You guys had a great time riffing on the Carman Jorda story.
I hope you’ll take this further and do a bit of background reading to find out what the objectives Womens commission is, who the other 31 members are, who the current chair is.
We’ve had the options, now can you add some facts?
Yes, Mrs Fabiana Ecclestone, previously Flosi is Bernies wife. Her role on the commission is as the commissions ASN representative for Brazil.
well fancy that!
I won’t throw either under the bus because I’d say the same thing if my team spent millions and had a very clear reliability advantage. I can’t blame them for that. All is fair in Bellum.
Yeah, nah…..as we say here in NZ.
Just because we can understand the reasons the teams won’t give each other a break, when it is clear that those reasons aren’t in the interests of the sport, I think there are some sound reasons why we the teams should be shouldering significant blame for ‘ruining the sport’, for the sake of winning the ‘bellum’.
And how are Atticus and Huxley getting on with getting those facts on the FIA womens commission?
Have they got Mouton and Jorda lined up for a special ‘women in motorsport’ downshift?
Well, they aren’t really interested in researching…or working much. they do, however want to be CEO and not work so I’m not sure how I’ll manage that HR train wreck. ;)
Actually there is some info on the FIA’s website about it but to be honest, not a lot. Not what you would expect from a full commission with a mission statement. At least I didn’t see much.
I found an old presentation and a fairly old list of members. That was about it.
That said, the FIA website isn’t exactly brilliant at giving information on a lot of things, besides PDF documents of regulations and stewards decisions. The FIA really really like PDF documents ;)
Good on you Tom. I’ve had a bit of a delve too. The page isn’t bang up to date, but a bit of reading around and there is a fair bit of information there, plus the mission of the commission.
Hi Todd,
Can you give me an email address where I can send a couple of documents to you?
As Atticus and Huxley are planning their coup, I’ve pulled some information about the FIA womens commission together, and found some contact email addresses.
poor old Carman. My bet is she’s asked for a job or got someone to pull some strings for her to get her the job and the contact at the FIA, rather than say non and risk offending that person, has simply announced it in the days after the racing season has finished, when there is no other news and let her run into to the weedwhacker of motorsport opinion.
Todd, you mentioned that if F1 went back to a larger capacity NA engine, then it wouldn’t be the same as the last generation of V8s. While this is undoubtedly true, it also wouldn’t be the same price as the old generation of V8s (where the design was frozen in 2008). F1 engine manufacturers have gotten used to spending huge amounts on the current generation of power units, and they are unlikely to spend any less if the format changed. I don’t think reverting to NA engines in the future will make life any easier for the smaller teams.