"You can't take F1 to America, you have to take America to F1."
tpf@theparcferme.com
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Hi. Thanks for the pod, I have been listening for a long time. I appreciate a difference of opinions but how is it possible, especially for you Paul involved in professional motorsports, not to strongly condemn brake testing for any reason whatsoever. I was listening to Todd winding up and was really expecting you to shut it down. I can’t believe it… Everything is debatable up to a point, but surely not this! And the fact that Christian and Helmut, along with Max himself, saying they didn’t understand why Lewis ran into the back of him… Todd maybe you need… Read more »
I’m not sure if you heard the part where I clearly say maybe the lesson for Max here is that you don’t jam on the brakes when someone is on your tail? Do I think hitting the brakes hard when someone is on your tail is ok? Of course not. I didn’t think it was ok when Lewis did it to Seb and I don’t think it’s ok for Max either. I understand what he was doing trying to slow down even more to dislodge Lewis from his tail and force him to go around but I also know Lewis… Read more »
Thanks a lot for taking some time to reply in such detail, I really appreciate it. I hope it’s ok for me to reply in full, so we can hopefully dig deeper into the issue. I’d like to start by apologizing for being overly aggressive in my initial post. Jeddah was so intense, I admit having a difficult time processing it all. I am “TeamLH” but like you I am also TeamF1 above all. After reading your reply I decided to take some time to think, research further and listen to the whole show again and took notes along the… Read more »
I’ve enjoyed your podcast for the last few years and probably will again. However your defense for Max’s driving seems unjustifiable by your own standards. What he did was not “elbows out” racing. It was dirty and illegal and IMO for everyone but hard core Max fans is hurting the sport since the stewards are allowing and apparently even encouraging it. Great “elbows out” race craft was what Alonso did to hold back Hamilton in Hungary. That’s what I would like to see more of, not the garbage style of wheel to wheel racing that max seems to be so… Read more »
Well, we may not agree but I am certainly not advocating anything of the sort for Abu Dhabi. You may be making assumptions there. Again, I said Max hitting the brakes while Lewis was on his tail was a bad move. I said that in the podcast, I’ve said it again here in the comment section twice. Max was penalized for his actions both with a 5s penalty and a 10s penalty. I understand why he’s been aggressive. I think in context. I think Lewis punting Albon twice is aggressive and not the kind of “clean racing” you might prefer.… Read more »
I obviously agree with you and struggle to understand why we have to debate around “brake checking”… I find it so difficult to discuss when in reply we see “Max did this, Lewis did that”. Just because I am a Lewis fan doesn’t mean I can’t think critically. Every incident should be judged on its own. I was shouting in anger at Lewis in front of my TV when he was holding Nico up in Abu Dhabi 16! This event shows the issue at large that the community is being divided by: the difference between hard racing and dirty racing.… Read more »
Thanks for the measured opinions on the title fight. Here in the Netherlands there is also heated opinion and the tv coverage is also extremely biased, towards Max of course. Next year the tv rights for F1 will be taken by Viaplay and we will have expert analyses on track form Mika Håkkinen, David Coulthard and Tom Kristensen from the circuit. This will we backed up by studio expert Christijan Albers! How about that?!
And also to mention is Guido van der Garde as studio analist. It is changing a lot and we hope to get more mature and measured commentary next season. Thanks for your efforts which are also mature and measured!
I am watching F1 since the late Seventies and in that era we could only watch Dutch tv broadcasting only the Dutch GP and I believe also the German GP. In the beginning of the Eighties we could receive Belgian tv and they showed all the races. The commentary was very nice, knowledgeable and not in any way biased. Although they had their interest in Thierry Boutsen, their local driver. Then in the late Eighties we could also tune into the BBC. Commentary by Murray Walker and James Hunt, that was very good! Enjoyed that very much. Also alternatively we… Read more »
I like Paul di Resta, Martin B and Ant. They do a great job. Like JB when he’s on too.
Completely agree with yours assessment on ‘Crash Gate 2.0’. VER wanted HAM to pass for DRS advantage, HAM didn’t want to pass because of DRS advantage. It’s pretty obvious. For anyone on Team Hamilton, if you can present one instance of this world class driver coming upon a slower car and not passing immediately, especially on a clear piece of track where it can be see that there were no perils present, then I’ll eat my hat. Drivers pass slower cars, period. Unless there’s a tactical advantage to be gained, which there was. Lewis realistically did not need to know… Read more »
And this is an element that I have not seen much commentary on from pundits and race reports. I’m not trying to overplay the issue or marginalize Max hitting the brakes but in any other situation where a driver is chasing a leader of a race and the leader starts to slow dramatically, they would seize the opportunity and fly by them. In this case, Lewis very much knew what was going on and he chose to downshift, brake and tuck in behind Max. Now, I think that’s incredibly astute from Lewis because he didn’t want to get mugged in… Read more »
Todd, sorry for reiterating but I think you are underestimating the significance of this race, and therefore misunderstanding the reactions. The fact that there are so many pundits and reports that you disagree with doesn’t mean you are right. The racing community is fighting hard over this because it is important. I have never been active here before because I have always found your podcasts fair, even though I sometimes disagree. This is different. Yes Lewis is clearly pushing the limits to the max (dad joke) but it does not excuse anything. You can draw similar parallels on the road.… Read more »
I’m not trying to justify Max braking hard while Lewis was behind. I hope I’ve made that clear. I said that on the podcast. The lesson for Max is that you don’t do that regardless if your’ frustrated. I’ve been consistently about that. What I don’t agree with is that Max was dive-bombing into the corner with nope hope of ever making that corner trying to take the two of them out. I don’t think that happened here and I don’t think it was a Brazil repeat. He had massive opposite lock trying to catch the rear of the car… Read more »
That’s the thing, I honestly think you are not clear. Repeating “hitting the brakes hard with Lewis on his tail” while mentioning Lewis had room on the inside all the time is not a clear condemnation of something that is very wrong and should be called what is. Maybe you should start here: was it, for you, brake checking? What you have yet to mention is that this is incredibly dangerous on Max’s part. There’s a difference between saying “you don’t do that” and “you don’t do that because it is dangerous”. Yes it might go without saying but try… Read more »
Now I feel like we’re just engaged in semantics. Brake checking is not good and can be dangerous and it shouldn’t be done. I think that goes without saying.
Maybe you’re right, but IMO words matter…
Word do matter, that’s why I am careful with them in this case. just posted about an interesting video that the fine folks over at The Race did with data/telemetry. It’s an interesting look.
Always interested in data. And once again I want to thank you for continuing the exchange, it’s really appreciated as I’m sure you have a lot of feedback to deal with and I’m learning a lot. I read your article and will check out the vid. The more I think about this whole thing, the more I think this might actually be a difference in perception. I have to tell you my honest opinion: saying A did something wrong BUT B got him triggered, or BUT B did something bad 10 years ago sounds a bit like victim blaming. I’m… Read more »
Not my intention. the point of bringing up the past is for new F1 fans to base some of the current actions on. It is very important to know the history. For example, when I bring up Lewis’s actions in teh past vs, say Albon or Max or Charles etc. it is because he is a seasoned veteran and they are at the sharp end of their career. Part of developing a race craft is making mistakes like Charles did or Yuki is and Lewis did in 07 or 11 or 12 etc. When you view the completeness of a… Read more »
I understand your reasoning regarding historical context. I honestly can’t tell you why I felt different this time around when listening to the show, but the article you posted does help me see how we think differently. I watched the video (great job from The Race for sure), and this is where we probably have to agree to disagree: for me, it was a brake check. Although the data does not conclusively prove it wasn’t, I can definitely see that there is room for interpretation however. I also see why you might want to reserve the term brake checking for… Read more »
Maybe they were both playing games, but this does not excuse brake checking. You are not addressing the main issue here.
I’ve said several times that his braking hard with Lewis on his tail was a bad move.
I was not replying to your comment here. I was replying to Xean’s comment.
The term ‘Brake Check’ implies that Max intentionally hit the brakes in hopes that Lewis would run into him. Any time one of these cars even touch each other, there’s a high chance of one or both cars being out of the race. That either of these drivers would take that chance is dubious. If Lewis stayed behind Max and decelerated in time, both cars would have been stopped on track, right before the DRS detection line, as that is the trajectory of both cars’ deceleration prior to Lewis getting on with it. Unfortunately, as Lewis accelerated and jinked left,… Read more »
THANK you for explaining the DRS line issue that the TV folks missed! Look, the key issue here was Horner saying ‘strategically’ to Max… that was a clear driver instruction (ahem, where’s the rules on that?) and that lead Max to try and make sure that Lewis passed him JUST BEFORE the DRS line. If Lewis had, then max could have passed the DRS line, opened the DRS and gotten past Lewis again. In his desperation to achieve this, perhaps Max decided, seeing the line advancing, to brake harder, forcing Lewis to go around. Lewis was smart enough to know… Read more »
I would agree with the assessment up to a point. Lewis is very much smart enough to know what’s going on. That’s why he downshifted, braked and tucked in behind Max. He knew where the line was and wanted to wait until after the line to make the pass. Very astute head’s up move by him but the braking caught him out. Max wasn’t having any of it and braked to dislodge Lewis from behind him and force him to go around. That’s how we saw it.
Absolutely I agree, but I still think that driver instruction by Horner set this all in motion. The end result was, as you and Paul explained it, logical. What noone wants to assess is the driver instruction from Horner (himself a wily racer!).
Well, I agree that RB telling Max where to let Lewis past is very tactical and a great call but credit to Lewis, he knew what was up and he chose to tuck in behind to deny RB the opportunity. At this level, you are dealing with a seasoned veteran and Lewis wasn’t falling for it. Had roles been reversed, no doubt Merc would tell Lewis same thing because it is a tactical advantage. The strategy folks in these teams are genius.
Question: Are driver instructions allowed? If RB had said, let him pass (orders from the Stewards)… but adding “strategically” seems to me to be actual driver instructions… no? I KNOW this is a moot point because, in the end Lewis knew what was happening all the time even if Max was desperate (Quali and in the race).
They tried to ban driver coaching in the past but the did away with the rule because the teams were simply using code to do so.
Ah, okay. I must have missed that update. Appreciate the constancy of your knowledge.
The voice you heard on the team radio is Gianpiero Lambiase, Max’s race engineer, but Christian may have been involved. They may even have been discussing this before the race after what happened in Bahrain.
Remember that Lewis was penalized for doing exactly that (overtaking after letting past) to Kimi in Spa 08, losing him the race after it had ended.
This rule needs to be looked into for sure.
Yeah, there is a precedent there due to Spa 08. Paul and I were trying to remember what Charlie Whiting said was an acceptable amount of time to pass before attempting a re-pass. If Max passed him, it would have been in keeping with FIA precedent to penalize him for it.
There was talk of staying behind for at least 1 corner. Carr 33 did not do this! The rule did not exist at the time the Spa 08 occurred. They created it post that race. Problem I had with this at the time was he was punished for what the FIA/stewards felt wrong, but not legally wrong! 25sec…. Wow! I would post a lot more but Sebastian said literally everything I was thinking – I’ll only add that Paul must be looking forward to one day MV gets to race in the IMSA Sports Car Series, get a chance to… Read more »
Max was def out of control, we can disagree on that. But what you missed was RB big mistake on tires at Max’s pit stop. They knew Lewis took hard tires, there was a long race to go, but they went with Med tires. Big error, unless Max drove Lewis off the track(!), he would’ve been easily passed by Lewis at the end
I actually think they knew that. They put him on the softs so he could jump ahead of Lewis and Esteban at the start (which he did). I think at that point they already knew that Lewis’ PU would be too strong to chase and overtake during the race proper. Maybe they were banking on another incident, or maybe they didn’t think the drop off would be that massive, or maybe the collision made matters worse with damaged diffuser etc… Honestly I think putting Max on the softs was genius at that point.
We definitely felt the race ended the way it was going to end anyway because those Mediums weren’t going to last. I believe Paul even mentioned how Bottas was on same tire and was quicker than Max at the end so getting those tires to the end while holding off Lewis was always going to be a herculean task and while Christian mentioned that Max was quicker in S1 so it was a possibility, I don’t think it was realistic. I agree with Sebastien that they may have been hoping for a SC etc.
Unpopular opinion – but, as soon as Lewis downshifted and pulled in behind Max he lost all rights to complain – there was room, he was faster, nothing would have stopped him from maintaining the inside and running Max wide at turn one, etc – he had the faster car at the time, and with the number of laps left he was only going to be faster. Lewis was playing it to cute by half, and all but got caught out. Anyone defending Lewis,what if (hypothetically) Max did have an issue, that locked up the rear of his car –… Read more »
It’s not a popular opinion for sure but there is truth in it. I’ve been clear that hitting the brakes hard with Lewis on his tail wasn’t a good move for Max but what many people don’t want to discuss is Lewis’s role in the incident. In any other world, any driver, who was chasing the leader of a race, would have pounced on the leader if he slowed (due to slow puncture, loss of power or whatever) UNLESS, that driver knew that he was trying to give back a position just ahead of a DRS line (which Lewis is… Read more »
Man, this choice of words again… “hitting the brakes hard with Lewis on his tail”. To be clear there is no doubt in my mind that Lewis is playing mind games. I think people overlook how incredibly demanding this sport is mentally. The hands might be holding the steering wheel, but the real athlete might be the mind (misquoting something I heard on Beyond the grid!). Did you see, on the first “proper” repass, how Lewis immediately starts harvesting and opens the corner super wide going all the way right? He KNEW Max would dive down the inside to get… Read more »
Agreed, Lewis had a choice…engage in the ming games and tricks or blow by him and take the lead. Max had a choice, coast further or hit the brakes. One is more dangerous than the other.
One is dangerous and illegal…
Sorry but the Max versus Lewis portion of this podcast was terrible to listen to. You would have thought Lewis Hamilton was the one guilty of 15 penalty seconds worth of driving infringements the way he was constantly brought up to defend or excuse Max’s behavior. I thought it was especially desperate to bring up Hamilton incidents from 10, 11 years ago like that has any relevance whatsoever to Max’s conduct on the track. Also, the claim that Lewis “brake tested” Vettel in Baku is false. The stewards investigated that incident and concluded Hamiltons brake input wasn’t erratic and was… Read more »
Meanwhile, we gave Lewis driver of the race, we said that Lewis is the more complete driver, he was very astute in trying to tuck in behind Max and not cross the DRS line, we said that there was precedent in the past for actions both drivers have done and the context here is that Max is at the sharp end of his career and Lewis is a seasoned veteran. We are drawing the same parallels you would for Michael and Senna or Button and Prost or Valtteri and Rubens. Past penalties and FIA judgments are interesting to consider and… Read more »
Man, this whole Max/Lewis things has really gotten out of control.
Like I’m impressed with all the new DTS fans getting engaged in the series, and I know the media is not helping, but wow, everybody take a breath and relax.
I agree. The tribalism is out of control these days. It’s almost more important that people immediately agree with others than it is to know we all may have different views of a situation and out of respect, we can disagree and that’s ok.
I agree with that last point completely. Agreeing to disagree is super important when going into any discussion and is terribly underrated these days. It seems like more and more it’s winners vs losers with no room for debate. And Todd I hope you don’t consider me as someone out of control, haha. Clearly the new influx of fans is very significant for the sport, and a great thing. At this point it’s normal to see tempers flare up as the championship is getting to a close. I for one definitely feel tense as we’re getting close to the weekend,… Read more »
Not at all, we can have a polite conversation and disagree and I think nothing of it and appreciate your perspective. I think we both agree on the main issue but perhaps disagree in the margins. Not life-altering for either of us. ;) The challenge when trying to look at multiple sides of a race or incident is that you effectively piss off both sides. :) I get hammered from both camps. :)
Haha, I understand. Thank you for your service! :D
Let’s hope for an epic race this weekend, looking forward to hearing your take on it, there will probably a lot to unpack!
Let’s hope we can avoid all the negativity but a dramatic race is fine. :)
You just know that the last race will totally anticlimactic.
Wow, can’t confess to having read all the threads below yet, but a hornets nest has certainly been stirred it seems. I don’t comment here often – but always listen to the pod – thanks for the great listen! But, I need to vent: what’s really grinding my gears about the Saudi race is this BS Max / Redbull are spouting in the media about, hat-tip Motorsport, [queue Todd’s quoting voice]: “Other people do exactly the same thing and they get nothing,” he said. “Both of us were off the track [at Jeddah], we were outside of the white line… Read more »