Simple tires; Ferrari kilowatts

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Photo by: www.kymillman.com/f1

The simple version of the allegations is that Ferrari are allowed to run 120kW of power from their ERS but some folks think they have managed a way to deliver more than that during a race.

The FIA have a sensor in place that measures the amount of electric output from the ERS and while they inspected Ferrari’s system in both Azerbaijan and Spain, they have installed a second sensor in Monaco just to be sure. In those initial inspections, the FIA were happy with what they found but the allegations are that Ferrari have a special software that delivers more power and thus the additional hardware to measure it this weekend.

Ferrari say that’s perfectly fine with them as they are not doing anything wrong and both Mercedes and Red Bull bosses, Toto Wolff and Christian Horner respectively, are fine and have full confidence in the FIA to ferret out any contravention of the regulations.

Simple Tires

The FIA and Formula 1 have asked Pirelli to ditch the multiple names for all of their compounds in 2019. Names such as Hypersoft, Ultrasoft, Supersoft would go away. The differing compounds would all remain but the new names would simply be Hard, Medium and Soft. Which compound Pirelli would bring for those three categories would be determined per the track.

If Pirelli chose to bring the Supersoft, Ultrasoft and Hypersoft compounds to a track, they would be Hard, Medium and soft respectively.

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jiji the cat

bout time on the tires.

subcritical71

I’m with you on this. Give the basics, that is what the majority of fans care about. Have the more technical information available to those that want it. Great call by F1 and the FIA. I like knowing the details, but when comparing times in a race weekend all that really matters is their relationship to each other which the 3 classification system does. Now, the question for me is, what color will the tires be? Do they remain the same or will their be color codes for the 3 categories? On the ERS front, I’m still struggling to see… Read more »

jakobusvdl

Its just dumbing things down as far as I’m concerned.
Fans can’t cope with the idea that there are 7 tyre compounds available, but only 3 are used at each race?
It’s supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, why wouldn’t you expect that to be complex?
Not that I think the tyre story is particularly complex, apart from the names.

subcritical71

I’d say we are more than casual fans and will still want to know the specific compound in use. Having said that, I hate when I don’t know the range of tires that are being used and I know that driver x is on the softs…. I don’t know where in the pecking order those tires fall unless I do some research, or wait for the commentator to mention it. Having the 3 categories tells me instantly all the info I need to watch and compare.

sunny stivala

By this latest for 2019 FOM brief to Pirelli as approved by the FIA the 7 tyre compounds identification will be down to three names and three colours, but unless more changing briefs to Pirelli comes along the seven compounds will still be there, and you will have been told it’s A or B, C, D, E, F, or whatever. Pirelli: “We had a request from FOM (approved by the FIA) to just call them Hard, Medium and Soft. With three colours, the same colours and names for all races, but obviously “different compounds”. Unless new tyre briefs are given… Read more »

jiji the cat

i dont think its dumbing down, i think it is more a case of simplifying.

Now all they need to do is let drivers and teams use any of the 3 compounds any way they like, increase strategy variety.

jakobusvdl

Fair enough, simplifying, except when the commentators have to start explaining that this weekend, the hard is actually a super-soft, the medium an ultra soft, and the soft a hyper soft, whereas last race the hard was a super hard, the medium was a hard, and the soft was a medium. Just stick with the dumb names they’ve given them, until we get used to it, or switch to a 1 to 7 numbering system – that could be simpler. Any combination choice of three compounds! That’s radical. So, what’s that? 9 potential race strategies, 18 if you include fresh… Read more »

arrow044

Agreed. There are only 3 compounds on offer per race from Pirellis portfolio of 7. Don’t understand why it’s such a big deal for some fans except wanting to complain about anything and everything.

sunny stivala

The “folks” that think FERRARI have managed to deliver more ERS power during a race than what is permitted by the rules/regulations are the usual well known opinion fomenters, some of whom are regarded as highly respected. By means of the mandated use of a single FIA approved specification ECU the FIA have total control and the means for effective policing including in real time of all there is to police as regards this subject. The rules/regulations states that the maximum electric power transfer to the drivetrain through a single MGU-K is 4mj/161bhp 200Nm for 33.33 seconds per lap. It… Read more »

MIE

Sunny,
We have had this discussion before, the only limit in the regulations is the transfer of energy from ES to MGU-K of 4MJ per lap (and transfer from MGU-K to ES of 2MJ per lap). There is unlimited transfer of energy between MGU-H to MGU-K and vice versa. The derived 33.33 seconds that you keep repeating appears nowhere in the FIA regulations.

See Annex 3
https://www.fia.com/file/64927/download/20785?token=XN2hTEj2

subcritical71

I believe the reason for people thinking the 33.33 seconds is some sort of limit is that if you use the MGU-K getting its energy from the ES at full allowed power (120kw) for 33.33 seconds, you get 4MJ of energy transfer, which coincides with the maximum energy storage allowed. But, you don’t have to necessarily use the MGU-K at full power so the deployment time can actually be longer per lap. Its up to the teams to determine their beset deployment strategy. That is all if the MGU-K is powered directly from the ES. But as you say, the… Read more »

sunny stivala

Yes it is not necessary to deploy the MGU-K at full permitted power. in fact the most efficient way around a lap is to use the electric deployment allowed all over the lap, or as much over the lap as possible, senza lifting and braking points.
a repeat to you “The drivers have access to an additional 160bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap”.

sunny stivala

As I said “A driver has an additional 161bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap”. SUB wrote: “you don’t have to necessarily use the MGU-K at full power” that is correct, in fact those that can “reliability wise” do it deploys electrical energy by the MGU-K all over the lap and they will still be deploying within the max power and max time allowed, some deployment strategies examples would be: 4mj for 33.33 seconds. 2mj for 66.66 seconds. 1mj for 133.32 seconds. Or any combination of power/time not exciding the max permitted.

MIE

You are confusing energy and power as you did last time.

The case matters when refering to units. You are just highlighting your lack of knowledge.

sunny stivala

Thanks for your ultra bright complement, but I stand with all I said about this subject. my knowledge is for sure dwarfed by yours. no matter MGU-K (ART 1.25) max permitted deploy to engine on energy deployment chart.

MIE

1.25 refers to the MGU-K having a maximum power of 120kW. That just sets the size of the electric motor fitted to the car, it doesn’t specify how long that motor can be used for. The maximum 4MJ of energy that can transfer from the ES to the MGU-K would indeed allow the motor to be driven at full power for 33.333 seconds. However, the energy flow from the MGU-H to the MGU-K is unlimited. So for the times when the turbo is spinning due to sufficient exhaust pressure the MGU-K can be driven from this source of energy, so… Read more »

sunny stivala

Numbers denoting technical terms, education (technical) and knowledge (technical) are something that I had to learn, and fully understand to be able to make use of in real life for a living and that was a long time ago, so now pushing them at me is not going to impress me any. Do not take me wrong here, as I regards myself as still learning. Quoting an engine manufacturer team:- “Modern F1 cars are propelled by two source of power, 1,6l v6 turbo ICE and an electric engine (MGU-K) assisted by the MGU-H. on every lap, the driver has a… Read more »

MIE

Perhaps you should change your Google search terms, and then you won’t suffer so much confirmation bias.
This from the FIA when this set of power unit regulations was introduced in 2014.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/news/files/FIA-leaflet-2014-A5-light.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj9neKk0avbAhVIW8AKHRYLAgMQFjACegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw02hCdzbZqpG8P3r9sbw2v5

This from Mercedes last year.
http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/formula-1-engine-facts/#

This story from Autosport earlier this year.
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/135309

sunny stivala

I know that your opinion is a right of yours but persisting on this your interpretation of the MGU-K maximum deployment rules you wasting a lot of time and space.

subcritical71

Hey MIE, it’s not just Mercedes that think that, I found this from the other manufacturers except Ferrari who have very little revealed on their deployment strategy. I’d be really surprised if they overlooked this ‘free’ power in the rules. Renault:https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/technique-the-mgu-k-and-mgu-h-explained-791187/ Power delivery Taffin admits that power delivery has greatly progressed since the early days of the Power Unit back in 2014. “Power delivery of the stored energy is now performed around almost the entire lap,” Taffin confessed. “We have reached outstanding levels of overall efficiency. Today, the MGU-K is capable of producing 120kW, which is the equivalent of 160bhp,… Read more »

sunny stivala

There is a difference between a dilettante and a rookie. A dilettante is an amateur, someone who dabbles in a field out of casual interest rather than as a professional or serious interest. While a rookie is an inexperienced newbie, whom if one shows him a nut and a bolt and asks him to name which is which will tell you they are fasteners. His ego will push him to the point of opposing just for the sake of opposing.

sunny stivala

Subcritical71. You mentioned “maximum energy storage allowed” this is one item that is not fully understood by some. “Maximum energy storage (harvested) allowed and maximum storage capacity are two different things. The rules does not speak of or mandate what the maximum capacity storage of the ES/battery should be, as long as its weight is between 20 and 25kgs. The storage capacity of a battery should be at least a minimum of double the discharge rate needed, preferably triple the discharge rate needed.

sunny stivala

 MIE. Yes we had this discussion before and I still stand with all I said back than.
Yes MHU-H to MGU-K is unlimited, but no matter what you throw at the MGU-K which is the final link permitted to transferring electric power to the drivetrain, the MGU-K maximum is 120kw/4mj/161bhp 200Nm. ref:-(power unit energy flow legand:engine-ERS-other)
“The drivers have access to an additional 160bhp for 33.33 seconds per lap”.
Back then I told you that you like some others are misinterpreting the rules/regulations about the electric energy flow permitted to the drivetrain.

MIE

The MGU-K is 120kW maximum power (this is approximately 161 bhp).

The 4MJ only applies to the energy flow from the ES to the MGU-K.

You keep quoting yourself, however it doesn’t make it correct, no matter how many times that you do it.

sunny stivala

In my opinion the exact revers of your post applies to what you keeps quoting. I maintain that your interpretations of the energy flow to the drivetrain is wrong/incorrect.

sunny stivala

I waited 24 hours, nothing and nobody came back, now this is for you DAVE to read and learn to treat others a bit better “AMG PETRONAS MOTORSPORT INSIGHT: UNDERSTANDING THE HUBRID DUTY CYCLE. 04-07-2017”

subcritical71

What is in that article supports supports MIE statements. If you are interested in learning, read below. If your interested in picking apart nuances and injecting opinions which are against well established engineering principles then read no further. I’ll try an analogy, these are never 100% perfect, but should get the idea across. 4MJ is like a fuel tank with 100kg of fuel (available energy). 120 kw is like the 100kg/hr fuel flow limit (power limit). The MGUK can only use 120kw (or like my analogy 100kg/hr) of power at any time. This is the limit of the MGUK itself… Read more »

sunny stivala

Although it is your opinion which you expressing and that is a right of yours, in my opinion it is a waste of time and space (ink is for free nowadays), the numbers given will not impress a retired certified electrical and mechanical engineer. The last and only link in the system we are talking about that can/is permitted to deploy electrical energy to the drivetrain is specified by the rule makers as “MGU-K to engine max power 120kw-161bhp. Without being asked I referenced “an official energy flow chart” also an “official manufacturer team link”, here is a third link… Read more »

subcritical71

MIE, seems we are looking at the same reference at least.

Ref: Power Unit Energy Flow, Issue 10, 22-11-2017

Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 9.08.37 AM.png
sunny stivala

Yes that is the power unit energy flow chart. read:- single MGU-K (art 1.25) max 120kw to engine (art 1.23).

Richard Piers

Then we shall all be in complete ignorance of what tyre is being used where. Why not a single letter or number ?

jiji the cat

years ago we used to have A,B,C, and D’s. Drivers used to mix them according to set up for the track, ie you weren’t limited to 1 compound at 1 time on the car, which i like.
For me its relatively the same as having hyper, ultra etc. Just you had to remember letters instead of names and colours, but i have to admit you could never remember who was running what.
I think just a plain hard, med, soft, with different colours should work fine.

Fabio

I posted this under the McLaren, McLaren, McLaren, podcast. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tyres, Tyres, Tyres… I have to disagree with the idea of having just three compounds called ‘soft, medium and hard’ irrespective of whether they’re SS or Ultras etc. Here’s why, Say I’m watching race X, Daniel comes out on Softs, does 30 laps (because in reality they’re Mediums) and then has to pit because they’re worn out. Next time I’m watching race Y, Daniel comes out on Softs, and I’m thinking great, he can do 30 laps and beat Lewis, nope, he has to pit after 15 laps because in… Read more »

jiji the cat

i tend to disagree a little. when you take into consideration the track layout, temp, surface, etc etc. then i would tend to think soft, med, and hard at say…silverstone, would give you roughly the same perceived degradation as soft med and hard at, say…monaco.

Broderick1

Is this just F1 fixing something that didn’t need fixing? Again?

I am fine with the current tyre nominations and could follow without confusion.

Having said that, what I would really love is a small tyre graphic beside the driver’s name to indicate what type of tyre they are currently racing in. A colored circle would suffice.

sunny stivala

They (FOM) like attempting to have more common sense, for being common, and some might think that’s a rare commodity, but this thing will hide more then it will expose to the follower. There is a major tyre factor in this year’s performance driven by F1 politics, much more than last year. Keeping the tyre in the “window” is a much bigger part of the car performance this year than last year, easily half a second per lap difference, no matter how good the car/driver is, tyres a by far the major part of the car performance (the only thing… Read more »

subcritical71

I’m thinking of the average viewer here. During FP3 today they were showing the Hypersofts with a pink S in some of their graphics and an H in other graphics. I knew what was going on, but even the people in charge of the graphics got it wrong. Also, the actually compounds in use will be known for those that want to know, and I’m sure the commentators and bloggers will report it as usual. So we are actually not loosing or gaining any information.

sunny stivala

Not to worry, you will not be losing anything, only gaining, in fact at the same time as this FOM brief to Pirelli one of the three FOM bosses just said “F1 is all about selling glamour and parties”.